Got a problem with our admins? Please feel free to express here!
 #171438  by Warlock
 
Hail Knights Reborn,

Long time no forum. Some of us were having a chat the other day, and I brought it up to Jawf tonight, and he recommended I bring it to the forums, which I think is a good call because this isn't really suitable for just a random server chat. Just to begin though, I wasn't entirely sure where to post, and while this isn't an issue at all with the admins, it is tangentially related as it is an issue with the very outdated naughty word filter.

I have personally been affected by this filter for years, and despite repeated mentions, my pleas have been shrugged off as jokes or not worth the time to consider. However, speaking as an educator of young adults and as a longtime out and proud member of the LGBTQ+ community, I can't stress enough that there are many words that today are necessary for young adults like the kids I teach to feel included and able to identify as themselves. One of these words is the word "gay." Gay has not really been used in the way that it was used when this word list was likely last updated in a very long time.

In 2022, gay is now generally a pretty accepted way for people to identify themselves if they don't specifically identify as say "homosexual" (as was once offered me as an "alternative"). I am nonbinary, so I am absolutely not "homosexual" and instead identify as "gay" or "queer" -- it is a vital component of my identity, and being able to express this within contexts in which it is relevant is important to me. While it is not a subject that comes up regularly, it is one that I shouldn't be prohibited from discussing using the terms most of us in the real world feel comfortable using to discuss it.

Now, I do understand that in the '90s and early '00s, there was a pejorative use of this word in the same way people use other offensive words in a demeaning way to alienate and bully, and this connotation is often still thrown around in Europe and other places where English is not the primary language, but here it is done more just as slang than anything offensive needing policed. As for the slur itself, it is generally no longer the case in 2022 that this word is used in such a way, and in fact, not being able to use that word is fostering a far greater problem in making those who wish to identify in such a way as feeling as though they are not seen; it also provides troll fodder to those who want to accuse you of getting around the word filter just to talk about your identity in a meaningful way. Thus, in your efforts to make an inclusive environment, safe from bullying, the fact this word filter has not been updated in a very long time has slowly made the server more and more alienating at times for some, including myself. This kind of thing could easily drive away younger players who have never not been accepted as "gay." Therefore, potential new gamers could be easily driven away from our community before they even get started.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of a word filter, but I do think we'd all be better served to have a tighter filter of actually offensive things that the community finds it wants to be avoided, as I'm sure this is not the only instance of a word ban or partial word ban that is a bit silly today, especially with the capabilities we have to mod this game beyond what is already available. This seems like a rather simple task to do something like a forum survey in which people voted on whether a word was offensive or not for a handful of words that maybe could or should come off the list, as well as adding a few transphobic and other actual slurs that are not currently caught by the filter. I think the KR server community would also be better served if the admins then enforce this language rule in the spirit of the law by silencing cyberbullies and hate speech (as I have often seen some of them rightly do) rather than relying on a script that targets a far too wide scope of arbitrary words that most don't even find offensive or partial word bans that end up earning you a strike for talking about grapes.

Thanks for considering my suggestion.

Salutations,
The Wicked and Westerly Warlock
 #171440  by deathscyth
 
so I don't entirely disagree but I also don't agree seeing how I'm against teaching these things in school in general. I feel that is for people to decide on themselves however in terms of the server word filter it would be a bit of work that to go and make it to where everyone is pleased it'll never happen will I oppose your suggestion no not at all will I side with it no I will remain neutral but I do believe your opinion is a valuable thing for the reason I bring the school issues up is we are a pg13 server so I'm against in that aspect sorry if this doesn't make much sense trying not to put a whole lot mainly because I feel this isn't something that's really an issue not sure why needing to identify on the server is a big deal unless it's being used in a topic but at that point you could always take it to pm since some might also feel uncomfortable with that topic on the server.
 #171441  by John
 
It's not so much how offensive the word is but how it is used, and in my experience, there are many often used as an insult rather than for self-expression. Gender identity is a controversial subject along with religion and politics. Though, we don't ban discussion of such subjects, we acknowledge they can and sometimes do lead to heated debates and disagreements that do not remain civil. While we strive to make KR a welcoming environment for everyone, we do it so people can enjoy the game - we are not a idea/political platform(Please read this). Cyber bullying is detestable and we will act to remove it, and if bringing up controversial subjects is causing unpleasantness on the server, then the discussion must stop when asked by an admin.
 #171442  by Uscari
 
I can only speak for myself, but after reading the respectful, detailed, and sensible opening post, I 100% agree with Warlock on this question.

While back in 2003 the use of the word "gay" was almost exclusively used to insult people, it has been nearly 20 years since then, many of the immature kids who did that have now grown up, matured, and even had kids of their own who grow up never considering homosexuality something to be ashamed of.

For us to now filter any use of the word "gay", which these days is pretty much synonymous with homosexual in a purely descriptive context, is an implication that homosexuality is an inherently insulting character trait. It is an implication that there is something wrong with being gay, and we should update our filter to reflect that being gay is not something to feel insulted about.

I would also add that I don't feel the word "gay" should be considered controversial or political. It should not be a controversial or political statement to acknowledge who you are attracted to, or the type of people you might consider being in a loving relationship with. Love and intimacy is part of being human. Any online community with a chat function should permit conversations about love and relationships, which inevitably calls for us to consider distinctions about sexual orientation.

People have a right to their own opinion with regards to whether they support or agree with homosexuality, like anything else. However, I consider it inherently inflammatory for someone to cite their opposition to homosexuality as a justification to silence those who are just expressing who they love. I think those that make an issue out of players on KR simply acknowledging their sexuality are acting in violation of our rules against flaming.

Respectfully, I think we would be legitimizing a culture of exclusion and inflammatory behavior by penalizing a gay guest simply expressing who they are due to the personal objections of another guest.

In short, I support taking the word "gay" off the filter, and if visitors have a problem with it, they have to acknowledge that other players have a right to express who they love. To deny that right is insulting to their status as human beings, and thus inflammatory.
 #171445  by jawfin
 
Its an interesting case study, I'm not phased either way, especially considering those being offensive just switch it out to g@y.
But that in itself reveals the intent of the person using it, as John notes, we'll immediately ban any bully - and the player doing this has just put themselves right in the middle of the gunban reticle.

The downside of the blacklist filter is hitting words that contain the flagged word, which are https://www.thefreedictionary.com/words-containing-gay which is to say, not any non-sexual common words, unlike say analysis which contains anal.

The link John posted details the function of our server, it's not a political platform, in no way any kind of soap-box, it's for playing a fictional game set in an aeon past in another part of the universe - so it could be argued any conversation "off-topic" has no right to be there!

A case in point is reverse engineering the Invite to become a KR member form: -
https://www.knights-reborn.org/forum/vi ... .php?t=457
Note that the players name, age, location & gender are all optional - thus not even deemed worth enough importance to be a KR member, so it's not relaxing a standard, it's just not a factor in the first place.

I can run your request by council but for the reason stated by John & myself please appreciate it may not be acted upon.
 #171451  by Warlock
 
Ah yes, the old "think of the children" argument, oh no it might get political, and a healthy dose of what about the sex bots? I didn't expect much from bringing this up again, but I expected more.
 #171567  by Joltz
 
The fact is just because you have strong feelings about this doesnt mean everyone should just bow down to all your wishes
 #171571  by Atsila
 
Hmm. Usually I don't comment on these topics but this in a way does affect me. The word filter honestly I don't see a big deal about it I'm not a guy so it may be different for me idk. However I don't see much has changed honestly in some people using the word gay as a way to be derogatory toward someone. Sure many have accepted LGT but still have those who hate and will use a word in a manner to which to make fun of start a heated argument.
Is it a word sure should it be used that is up to the person who wants to be identified by a word but any word does not define who they are its a word that is used to describe a sexual preference that honestly is no one's concern unless a person make it known.
It should be up to an individual to decide if they trust enough to use a word such as gay because at the same time there still is backlash from people who have to hate things because they have nothing else better to do.
But again I'm not a guy but I feel it should still be up to a person and the conversation because if the word is unfiltered and a different direction of the conversation takes place than that can lead to a whole another thing happening also.
 #171572  by jawfin
 
Soooooooo, I suppose I have to post now.

You know, it's said a great comedian can be defined by the time paused between the set-up of the joke and the punch line. Typically, that's 3 to 5 seconds, instead of blurting it out.
Which, on reflection, makes the KR council the greatest comedians, because here's the punch line folks: We took the word GAY out of the word filter 10 minutes after my previous post - that's right, we've been sitting on this now for nearly 2 months!

So yup, we removed from the filter 10 minutes BEFORE Warlock wrote: -
Ah yes, the old "think of the children" argument, oh no it might get political, and a healthy dose of what about the sex bots? I didn't expect much from bringing this up again, but I expected more.

Their assumption that we would ignore the request says more about the poster than us, neh?

I mean, did anyone even bother to try? Noooo, you just assume we'd have a knee-jerk reaction.
Thanks guys, the respect is palpable.

In actual fact, the issue was settled in Council very quickly, with the argument going something along the lines of "I don't care enough either way to bother, so I'm not going to enforce a rule I don't care about."

I was waiting at least for Warlock to notice before posting, I felt by their post they didn't have the right to get the answer directly from us, but to work it out. Didn't think that would have applied across the board.

Anyway, the purpose of this thread is fulfilled, therefore locked.

Cheers -.-