[Lord Rikan]

Two of the greatest Dwarves in Tolkien's legendarium, will duel each other infront of the Dimrill gates of Moria. *no websites have been used for the research about these two characters*

Thorin II Oakenshield, King Under the Mountain



“There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after.”


Early life:
Thorin was born and raised within the vast halls of Erebor, the Lonely Mountain. As customary in Dwarf culture, at young age, Thorin was learning to become a forgemaster, trader and warrior. He had a sister and a brother who were younger than him Dis (who then bore his nephews Fili&Kili) and Frerin.
At the age of 24, Thorin witnessed the destruction of his homeland. He was returning from Dale when he saw Smaug the last dragon, destroying Erebor. It is said that Smaug decimated hundreds of Dwarves with his claws and that thousands, were those that died beneath his fire storm. Thorin was too young to absorb such cruelty and grief and it ended up scarring him for the rest of his life. He quickly rushed inside to help those that survived including Frerin and Dis but Thorin saw no sign of his father and grandather. He tried to reenter the mountain but he was stopped by his comrades (possibly Dwalin&Balin) and made towards the valley. There he gathered with what remained of his people and there he also found Thrain and Thror, but how they were able to flee, they did not reveal.
Robbed of their homeland they moved towards the West searching for a place to stay and for a long time the Dwarves of Erebor had to scrape around the dirt to survive.
When his grandfather was murdered by Azog, after a desperate attempt to reclaim Moria, Thorin (53 years old) and Thrain, guided by legions of Dwarves, led assaults to any Orc stronghold and camp they would find. This became known as the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, which lasted ten years. During the final battle of the war, infront of the Dimrill gates of Moria, Thorin witnessed once again grief : his uncle Nain, was slain by Azog and his brother Frerin died fighting by his side. With his troops Thorin lead a charge towards an incoming wave of Orcs from the eastern forests, there he fought bravely avenging the deaths of his loved ones but it is also there where he became known as Oakenshield (his arm was wounded so he picked up an oaken branch and used it as a shield/mace).
Though victorious at Moria there was no feast, the Balrog yet roamed the halls of Durin and too many were the fallen and to prevent any remaining orc to defile and loot the corpses, against their will Thorin, Thrain and Dain decided to burn their brothers under the rising sun.
Many years later Thrain left as well to try and reclaim Erebor but he simply left no trace after entering Mirkwood, leaving Thorin to face his demons,as the last

Qualities:
Excellent warrior, skilled in both archery and swordsmanship
Leader
Loyal to his companions
Orator/Trader
Agile

Battles/Sieges:
Siege of Erebor
War of the Dwarves and Orcs (10 years long)
Final Battle of Azanulbizar
Battle within the Misty Mountains
Battle of the Five Armies

Weapons:
Orcrist (it is rumored that this is the sword Glorfindel used, to slay one of the seven Balrogs during the First Age)
2 handed Axe
Bow
Oakenshield

Gimli, son of Gloin



"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens."

Early life:
unlike Thorin, Gimli was born and raised in the Blue Mountains with his father Gloin and his uncle Oin but he was trained to become a forgemaster and a warrior as well. He spent most of his days either at the forge or aiding his father with gems of any sort. It is presumed that Gimli spent most of his time with Fili and Kili and that he became fond of Thorin as well. His involvement in the growth of his people's wealth and respect was never seen before in such a young Dwarf.
When Gloin and Oin joined The Quest for Erebor, Gimli was upset because they didnt allow him to come as he was considered too young but not too unexperienced. We can come to the conclusion that Thorin did adknowledge his skill as a warrior but because he was young, he didnt want to see him face such grief and sorrow as he did when Smaug attacked Erebor. He didnt want Gimli to go through the pains that he faced.
Once Erebor was reclaimed, most Dwarves from the West and South rallied North, also because they had to attend the funeral of the King Under the Mountain.
As it was for Balin, Dwalin, Gloin and all the rest of the Heirs of Durin, the death of Thorin was a tragic event for Gimli and since then he trained to become an even greater warrior to protect Erebor.
Gimli became also fond of Bilbo Baggins the Hobbit that helped reclaim Erebor and swore to protect him if any danger would threaten him.
Infact, 60 years later, an emissary of Mordor approached the gates of Erebor claiming that he would give one of the remaining three rings of Power given to the Dwarves, if they revealed any news regarding a particular Hobbit. Obviously the Dwarves refused, once again proving their loyalty to their allies and friends, and Dain, King Under the Mountain, sent Gloin and Gimli to Rivendell, in order to warn Elrond of such event.

Qualities:
Excellent fighter, skilled with axes
Loyal to his companions
Merchant
Tenacious

Battles/Sieges:
Battle of Khazad-Dum
Battle of Amon Hen
Battle of Helms Deep
Battle of the Pelennor fields
Battle of the Black Gates

Weapons:
2 handed axe
2 one-handed axes

[Zaluk]

I think Gimli would take it handily. I never really was impressed with Thorin, even less so in the books. He never really did anything great.

Gimli however, was taking on Uruk-Hai daily and was able to run for 3 whole days without rest, food or sleep. Uruk-Hai are much superior to the Goblins and Orcs that Thorin would regularly fight. Not to mention Gimli has a much better track record in large battles. With Thorin he always had lost something, whether that was his life, the battle or a friend. On the other hand, Gimli was involved with arguably much more dangerous battles and would come out of it victorious the majority of the time.

I think Gimli would take it fairly convincingly.

[Lord Rikan]

As someone who has dedicated his life studying Tolkien I strongly disagree with some of your statements Zaluk. I will begin saying yes that Thorin never faced the superior orc breed of Uruk Hai....pretty much it, that is the only statement that I agree with. Here is why I disagree:

1) ''Thorin he always had lost something, whether that was his life, the battle or a friend'' There was never a mention in the books nor the films that Thorin lost a battle

2) ''was able to run for 3 whole days without rest, food or sleep'' Gimli faught in the War of the Ring which lasted 2 years, Thorin faught in a war that lasted 10 years. If Gimli came out victorious out of battles......the fact that Thorin survived a 10 year war.......kinda demonstrates that he came out victorious too.
The final battle of Azanulbnizar lasted a couple of days, so Thorin faught with no rest and no food. Also, Thorin when put under arrest in Thranduil's halls, was put in a cell for two months. The first couple of weeks he was given food and water, then they stopped feeding him. This shows his strong resiliance.

3) Thorin, if you read the Lotr Appendices or the Unfinished Tales, is a better fighter than Gimli

4) I think you are channelling your hate for the character of Thorin because of the movies.....which I dont really understand, but i may be wrong. No offense man, I am ok if you say Gimli would win, but the points you used are rather weak.

Thorin would win in my opinion

[Zaluk]

As someone who has dedicated his life studying Tolkien I strongly disagree with some of your statements Zaluk. I will begin saying yes that Thorin never faced the superior orc breed of Uruk Hai....pretty much it, that is the only statement that I agree with. Here is why I disagree:

I totally respect the fact that you're that dedicated, but one thing I must say is that I am not. I am just now currently delving into the world of Tolkien and yes I will be spending quite a few years reading his works, but I'm not going to make that kind of commitment. And currently, my knowledge on Tolkien's verse is very limited, so it's understandable if I get things wrong.

'Thorin he always had lost something, whether that was his life, the battle or a friend'' There was never a mention in the books nor the films that Thorin lost a battle

Fair enough, but my point still stands about him losing his life and/or friend. Having somewhat pyrrhic victories doesn't strike me as that impressive, compared to Gimli's victories.

''was able to run for 3 whole days without rest, food or sleep'' Gimli faught in the War of the Ring which lasted 2 years, Thorin faught in a war that lasted 10 years. If Gimli came out victorious out of battles......the fact that Thorin survived a 10 year war.......kinda demonstrates that he came out victorious too.
The final battle of Azanulbnizar lasted a couple of days, so Thorin faught with no rest and no food. Also, Thorin when put under arrest in Thranduil's halls, was put in a cell for two months. The first couple of weeks he was given food and water, then they stopped feeding him. This shows his strong resiliance.

I should have been more clear. My point was that Gimli simply has a better track record in bigger and more famous battles. I'm not trying to say Thorin never won any battles, just that Gimli won more significant battles. I'd also like to point out that the War of the Ring was much more dire (I could be wrong, but I doubt it). It was quite simply the war that would decide whether darkness would conquer Middle Earth entirely.

Thorin, if you read the Lotr Appendices or the Unfinished Tales, is a better fighter than Gimli

Has this been actually stated? If so, can you provide the quote? Also if this is true, I question why this match up was made, if the answer was already stated

I think you are channelling your hate for the character of Thorin because of the movies.....which I dont really understand, but i may be wrong. No offense man, I am ok if you say Gimli would win, but the points you used are rather weak.

Not at all, I'm mainly thinking of Thorin from the books. I also think it's a massive leap to assume that I'm having some sort of bias due to the movies...I don't recall ever sharing any distaste for the movies. In fact, I like them, however I think they could have been better, but why would that affect my judgement?

To me book Thorin just never was that impressive combatwise. Keep in mind that I've only just started delving into Tolkien's works :> I'd also like to repeat the fact that Gimli fought against more dangerous foes on a regular basis, such as Uruk-Hai.

[Difionex]

I just came here to say that Thorin would win imo. Since Thorin is much more agile than Gimli I think he would be able to dodge most of his attacks since Gimli uses a two handed axe. (As a main weapon)

[Lord Rikan]

Ok Zaluk, I am tremendously sorry if my tone got a little violent towards the end, i was very tired and I really needed to go to bed, so I was not controlling myself.
The reason why you were not impressed with Thorin combat wise in the Hobbit compared to Gimli in the Lord of the Rings, its because of the narrative. The first 2 publications of the novel were not supposed to tackle the raw and brutal side of war and death, it was supposed to be light hearted and infact even the scenes were the Dwarves kill the goblins in the Misty Mountains, despite being very descriptive feel more relaxed because so does the atmosphere.
However, as a reader, as a Tolkien lover and as a fan of the Khuzdul, I have to say that Thorin's prowess in battle begins to rise only during the final battle. Why? Because as we all know the last chapters of The Hobbit suddenly become more mature as it tackles with the consequences of war and greed. Whereas when yopu read a battle scene in Lotr, Tolkien fuuly describes the actions of most of the combattants, how they fight, how they feel, which weapons they use, what they say, ecc.
Here is an example:
<<At this point Gandalf fell behind, and Thorin with him. They turned
a sharp corner. ''About turn!'' he shouted. ''Draw your sword, Thorin!''
There was nothing else to be done; and the goblins did not like it.
They came scurrying round the corner in full cry, and found Goblin-cleaver
and Foe-hammer shining cold and bright right in their astonished eyes.
The ones in front dropped their torches and gave one yell before they
were killed. The ones behind yelled still more, and leaped back knocking
over those that were running after them. ''Biter and Beater!hey shrieked;
and soon they were all in confusion, and most of them were hustling back
the way they had come.>>
The Hobbit, chapter 4 Over Hill and Under Hill

<<Gandalf stood up and strode forward, holding his staff
aloft. ‘Listen, Hound of Sauron!’ he cried. ‘Gandalf is here.
Fly, if you value your foul skin! I will shrivel you from tail to
snout, if you come within this ring.’
The wolf snarled and sprang towards them with a great
leap. At that moment there was a sharp twang. Legolas had
loosed his bow. There was a hideous yell, and the leaping
shape thudded to the ground; the Elvish arrow had pierced
its throat. The watching eyes were suddenly extinguished.
Gandalf and Aragorn strode forward, but the hill was
deserted; the hunting packs had fled. All about them the
darkness grew silent, and no cry came on the sighing wind.
The night was old, and westward the waning moon was
setting, gleaming fitfully through the breaking clouds. Suddenly
Frodo started from sleep. Without warning a storm of
howls broke out fierce and wild all about the camp. A great
host of Wargs had gathered silently and was now attacking
them from every side at once.
‘Fling fuel on the fire!’ cried Gandalf to the hobbits. ‘Draw
your blades, and stand back to back!’
In the leaping light, as the fresh wood blazed up, Frodo
saw many grey shapes spring over the ring of stones. More
and more followed. Through the throat of one huge leader
Aragorn passed his sword with a thrust; with a great sweep
Boromir hewed the head off another. Beside them Gimli
stood with his stout legs apart, wielding his dwarf-axe. The
bow of Legolas was singing.
In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow:
he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of
some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a
cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the
wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed
the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like
lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder>>
The Fellowship of the Ring - A Journey in the Dark

We can obviously note, that the attention to the detail of the world, of the themes, of the characters and fights, is multiplied by 1000 in Lotr compared to The Hobbit.
However as I said before Thorin's true charisma and prowess as a warrior shines in these few lines:
<<They had forgotten Thorin! Part of the wall, moved by levers, fell
outward with a crash into the pool. Out leapt the King under the Mountain,
and his companions followed him. Hood and cloak were gone; they were
in shining armour, and red light leapt from their eyes. In the gloom the
great dwarf gleamed like gold in a dying fire.
Rocks were buried down from on high by the goblins above; but
they held on. leapt down to the fallsí foot, and rushed forward to battle.
Wolf and rider fell or fled before them. Thorin wielded his axe with mighty
strokes, and nothing seemed to harm him.
ìTo me! To me! Elves and Men! To me! O my kinsfolk!î he cried,
and his voice shook like a horn in the valley[...] Once again the goblins were stricken in the valley; and they were piled in
heaps till Dale was dark and hideous with their corpses. The Wargs were
scattered and Thorin drove right against the bodyguards of Bolg.>>
The Hobbit chapter 17 - Clouds Burst

It is also important for me to note that Tolkie, after having written The Lord of the Rings, wanted to rewrite with a little bit more of mature content, in order for the novel to be open to a wider audience and to allow that the narration would be similar to what is seen in Lotr. However his editors stopped him and maybe they were correct to do that, yet all that had been written ended up being placed in the appendices of Lotr, in Unfinished Tales or in common notes. Infact, it is in the Appendices - A that we find a chapter named Durin's Folk, where Tolkien delves deep into the lifestyle and history of the Dwarven race.
So Tolkien never explicitly wrote that Thorin was better than Gimli, as when one was alive the other was either dead or an adolescent but he did write something important in one of his notes, which implicitly shows that Thorin was a better fighter in spirit and experience than Gimli (once again im not saying that Gimli wasnt experienced, he defenitely is a badass but whilst the War of the Ring spanned for a couple of years, the War of Dwarves and Orcs took 10 years. SO Thorin had to be very, very resiliant to lead a charge or defend a stronghold every day or something).
Tolkien believed that nature was the ultimate power of Earth and that the characters in the tales of old, that received a recognition or a blessing from nature, were truly powerful if not legendary. Quoting an essay which brilliantly works on this theme (and others) says: ''Beorn represents nature and power in its raw state, and his unexpected aid of Thorin can be read as a mark of elemental approval for the dwarf’s actions. It works to reestablish Thorin’s status as a leader and warrior, with the reader.[....] The issue of Thorin’s bravery is equally complex. There are many passages where it appears he and the rest of the dwarves are behaving like cowards, insisting Bilbo go first into some unknown danger. Tolkien explains how Thorin believes these are the jobs for which he hired their burglar (though even Bilbo is skeptical how so many events could be covered under one contract). But if there were ever a final question of Thorin’s courage, one need only recall The Battle of Five Armies: In contrast to the Master of Lake-town, who attempts to leave when the going gets rough for the Lake-men, Thorin gives everything to change the tide of battle, and recapture the glory his people once enjoyed. The fact that he ultimately succeeds in his quest shows that his fate is not a tragic one resulting from hubris, but instead serves a noble purpose.''

[John]

I think this is a hard comparison given that you are comparing a character from a childrens book about a hobbit to a character from a much larger, more explicit book about the fellowship. Then you start referencing the books and movies in the same paragraph like they are the same...

Books>movies. Imo. Just so that's on the record.

[Lord Rikan]

John, Zaluk and I are only using sources from the books, we are not using the movies. Also, if we were to make versus series which would be quite obvious and direct to who would be winning, then there would be no fun at all. VS series (in my opinion) exist in order to push a person to explain in detail his thesis to why his character would win or not and because they belong to a slightly different audience, it makes it more of a challenge but as i pointed out before there are a lot of descriptions about Thorin's persona, which resemble the style Tolkien uses to identify characters in Lotr.
''Books>movies'' fine i get what you mean but i never included the films in the discussion. If versus series are too simple then whats the point of doing them. In my opinion, this vs is challenging but not impossible, I mean I have seen people comparing characers from videogames with characters from novels, and to be honest it felt a little weird/challenging but it was still a great versus series because of that.
Thats my opinion.

[John]

You've referenced both the books and movies several times in this topic already. My point about using both movies and books as references at the same time is that people can then just pick and choose what strengths or weaknesses they want on their character to possess that may contradict what the other sources do. You stick to one source and you elliminate all the contradictions and can back up opinions with facts and have a chance to actually convince others you are right like such debates and discussions are supposed to work.

What you have here is essentially a head butting war where no one will end up right, agreeing, or convinced because you are using contradicting sources.

[Lord Rikan]

You've referenced both the books and movies several times in this topic already. My point about using both movies and books as references at the same time is that people can then just pick and choose what strengths or weaknesses they want on their character to possess that may contradict what the other sources do. You stick to one source and you elliminate all the contradictions and can back up opinions with facts and have a chance to actually convince others you are right like such debates and discussions are supposed to work.

What you have here is essentially a head butting war where no one will end up right, agreeing, or convinced because you are using contradicting sources.

I honestly cant see where i used (contradicting) sources from the movies apart from when I thought that Zaluk was hating on the trilogy but that was my mistake. All the rest is books and essays. Anyhow, cool conversation but if i keep answering I wont do my homework.
Peace out